Here’s a thought to ponder.
As a Canadian born person of Chinese ancestry… who would you support? At the Olympic games, who would you root for?
China or Canada?
The Olympic one is an easy one. …the UGLY Chinese Canadian would cheer on Canada at the Olympics.
Proud Chinese Canadian soldiers (WW II)
earning respect for all Canadians
Now, let’s take this thought one step further. If Canada went to war with China… who would you support?
This is a question that has been asked of the UGLY Chinese Canadian.
Who would you support?
That depends on what the issue and what the cause was. That is my answer.
It’s like asking, “who do you love better”? Your parents or your children?
So in order to make an informed answer, one must understand and research the issue …no matter how unpalatable or difficult.
That is the problem.
The UGLY Chinese Canadian has been surfing over the myriad of “They said” vs “We said” discussion forums and “News” on the whole Tibetan-Chinese unrest. It appears that many are using the excuse that because “YOU” have “human rights” issues …therefore, YOU don’t count.
How simplistic.
It’s incredible that we assume that the majority of people understand the complexities and historic background of the current Tibetan-Chinese issue …when a great number of these people don’t even research something as simple as the background of a local political candidate. Let alone participate (vote) in an election.
But back to our ponderance… who would you support in a conflict?
Here’s an interesting interview from this past weekend’s Ottawa Citizen newspaper:
[...] …But that doesn’t prevent us from loving our countries and the people from both nations.
China is our motherland where many of us were born and raised, Canada is our current residing country where we have our families and jobs here. Technically, we’re Canadian first. We’re hard-working people, contributing to society, the local economy and volunteer missions.
However, no matter how long we live in another country, it does not change where our roots are. …[...] (see Ottawa Citizen for article)
the above excerpt was from a new Chinese-Canadian (the paper identified the person as being Canadian for 20 years).
So here is a question from this blog, The UGLY Chinese Canadian, for all you Bananas out there…
What are your thoughts on the whole Tibet – China discussion?
Do the flames of racial finger pointing (eg. comments on Youtube videos and discussion forums) upset you?
Do you care?
Would you march on a rally of support? and for who?… the Tibetans or the Chinese?
Would you support a boycott of Chinese products … or support the Chinese in their boycott of Western products?
Let’s hear from you, we’d especially like to hear from Canada’s real minorities, the Bananas… caught in two worlds.
What if.
What if we opened our minds…
As a born-and-raised Canadian, I find this hypothetical question to be a no-brainer. I know and love Canada; I know it to be a just, democratic country, and I know that we would not wage war against any country unless it is to defend our freedom and independence.
Sheesh, tUCC, what a dumb question!
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Have you every wondered what the world might have been like if the murderously racist Nazis and Japan’s imperialist crazies had won WWII? Sometimes we can’t avoid going to war.
I don’t care what race the enemy are; they are our enemies only if they threaten our freedom.
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Yep Umeboshi … I love asking the rhetorical questions.
Because one can never take anything for granted.
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It is not a dumb question. I have been asked that many times, and one time at a job interview. Personally, I am a Canadian and I will defend Canada with my last breath but I will not attack another country for Canada. The war in Afgan for example, what did the Afgans do to us. While I support our troops, I do not agree with the combat missions. Helping to bring democracy and human rights to the Afgan people is hogwash. It is all geopolitics. And we just spend a billion dollars doing it, wouldn’t it be better to feed the people with a billion dollars of food instead of feeding them bullets. If China attacks Canada, I will defend Canada 100%. I will stand on guard for thee.
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I would fight for Canada! I too stand on guard for thee. I am a second generation Chinese-Canadian. I agree somewhat with umboshi’s assumption that Canada would never wage war on another country. But with the stupid politicans of which many come from outside Canada, I wouldnt be surprised if some of these would try and take Canada down an aggressive path.
So many of them are blinded by their own hatreds that they bring it here onto Canada soil. And we welcome them with welcome arms.
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On second thought, I take back my “dumb question” remark.
What a wily old fox you are, tUCC!
Because if ethnicity –instead of reason — determines our allegiance in a time of crisis, then Canada was right to intern the Japanese during WWII.
I have no doubt that the Issei (first generation Japanese) were relieved that the internment saved them from making an overt choice. When my brother turned 18 while in the internment camp and announced his intention to enlist in the Canadian army, there was no mistaking my father’s relief that the Canadian Army refused all Japanese-Canadian volunteers. The thought of his Canadian son and his Japanese nephews being on opposite sides on a battlefield was unbearable to my father, especially as he had witnessed the horrors of war first hand as a Canadian infantryman in France during WWI.
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I grew up knowing Canada to be a peacekeeper and never a warmonger. Canada’s peace missions have always brought respect internationally, unfortunately, of late Canada has been quite partisan and militant. Not the respected peace mediator of which Canada is known. To me, Canadian militancy brings erosion of our democratic values – the recent media bias is a good example in which facts are altered to promote anti-sinoism. Dr Irwin Cotler, former justice minister of Canada, a respected Jewish-Canadian and is an open Israel supporter, would someone ask him what would he do if Canada is at war with Israel?
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I agree. Harper and company’s total lack of decencey has made me ashamed to be Canadian. What the hell did my father fight for in front line combat against Herman Goering divisions in WW2? I am in deep despair about Canada.
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CBC’s “the Hour” had former PM Jean Chretien as a guest the other night. Mr Chretien appeared frank and was quite coy on some of the questions posed upon him – namely, what he thought of his two successors – Martin and Harper.
In a thought, Chretien indicated that these two PMs haven’t been much a leader in leading our Nation. “Look at what Martin did to the Liberal party in his ambition to become the leader”.
The point here is… Leadership. A good benevolent leader will do the best for his people (not for himself). And we’re not talking about just the Prime Minister, but right down to your local City Councilor and even your, school Principal.
Yes, and history has demonstrated that Canadian/ American born people of Asian descent have stood up for their respective country’s of birth. See our earlier post “Loyal Japanese Bananas“.
This question “who would you stand for?” is one a number of bananas have been subjected to. During the early days of the Tibetan unrest, I happened to be chatting with a person who quickly assumed that I’d go up to bat and defend the Chinese postion …because of my Chinese heritage.
And to that I replied, was the basis of stereotyping and presumptive conclusions… the possible beginnings of unfettered racism if this sort of conclusion was fueled upon by “western residing” Chinese protestors. Protestors who themselves don’t know how to debate the facts with the misinformed.
Whether we “coloured” Canadians like it or not, we will be subjected to stereotyping… and it is this living up to stereotypes by our new arrivals that seem to bother so many bananas.
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tUCC said:
“it is this living up to stereotypes by our new arrivals that seem to bother so many bananas.
So, how do you get your message out to these new arrivals?
This is great blog, tUCC–I love it– but it seems most new immigrants don’t participate in blog discussions like this. Many don’t even bother to learn to speak English. So how do you reach them? I can think of only one solution: More intelligent. honest, articulate Canadian-born, thoroughly-Canadian-in-heart-and-mind non-whites like you and J.M and S.N. and ChineseCanuck need to run for public office. Or at least convince others like them to run. Put your money where your mouth is. Enough of immigrant MPs like Hedy Fry who once famously lectured Canadians about the imaginary crosses burning on some imaginary Canadians lawns.
And Chink Talk:
Irwin Cotler is one of the very few Liberals I have any respect for, and I doubt very much that he will run in the next election.
As for your hypothetical Israel-Canada war:
if that ever happens, it will be because a complacent multicultural Canada has dreamily allowed its “feel good” self to be taken over by the Jihadist likes of Osama bin Laden. You won’t want to be around then, Chink Talk.
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good following on this website. Challenging thoughts with good discussions!
The Tibet arguement is hard one to win with the definite west bias. Public opinon follows media lead in becoming fearful of China’s rise. There is real ovbvious media bias to anti-China.
The website author is correct in not being able to hide the Chinese in him.
We Chinese who now live in the new country Canada must listen to the predecessing Chinese so that we can understand the lessons and history.
If possible I would like to talk to you in person.
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umeboshi wrote:
“So, how do you get your message out to these new arrivals?”
SN, well known blogmistress, visits this blog …and she is also the editor for one of Canada’s large Chinese language newspapers (Ming Pao). Perhaps she may be able to convince her powers-of-be to open up a new column – “a banana’s view on the community” …and have her paper translate it into the Chinese language.
That may be a way of getting out a Canadian born’s perspective to our newer immigrant Canadians… because, truthfully, you can’t blame these folks if they don’t know our thoughts.
This has been done in reverse in the past where the Vancouver Sun featured a Chinese person’s thoughts and presented it to fellow Canadians in the English language.
______
Jia nada ren – i’ve got your email address. I’ll message you.
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The question is: Who would you fight for, China or Canada?
I was shocked when I saw a Church minister bring up the very same question in front of Canadian born Chinese-Canadian WW2 veterans, after viewing a photo display of Chinese-Canadian athletic teams and recreational clubs from the mid 1900’s.
This minister was not born in Canada. He was an immigrant. He did not live through the extreme racial prejudice of the head tax and exclusion act era that the pioneer Chinese had to live through. He did not live through WW2 in Canada when Canadian born Japanese-Canadians were labeled “enemy aliens” and sent to internment camps, then after the war refused to go back to the coast and dispersed across Canada, thus destroying the JC community.
He did not know these men as young men when they met in the Chinese United Church basement and decided to enlist for Canada, to prove their Canadianess, in order to earn the vote and full citizenship rights for all Chinese-Canadians.
China or Canada. The answer is simple.
For those Chinese-Canadian WW2 veterans, who had never been to China, and whose ancestors left China long before it was a communist country when it was still an imperial dynasty, the answer is clear. Canada.
Even though Canada continued systemic racism against Asians into the 1960’s, Chinese-Canadians and Japanese-Canadians would still embrace the only country they had ever known.
Multi-generational overseas Chinese may still care for the culture of their ancestral past many generations after their ancestors first came to Canada. But it is simply ethnic identity. The emotional and political loyalties don’t exist. When contemporary Chinese immigrants decide to come to Canada and become Canadian citizens, then there is now a loyalty to Canada.
Canada or China? It’s a political question. And the answer depends on one’s political framework.
Who started the war? and why?
These are the questions that determine the answer.
The Chinese pioneers in Canada’s 1800’s and early 1900’s whow willingly gave money to Dr. Sun Yat Sen to help buy guns to overthrow the corrupt Ching dynasty, wanted to help bring democracy to China to help make China a better place.
Present day Chinese-Canadians might also choose to fight against China simply because they love China and it’s 5000 year old culture so much, they they too would want to overthrow it’s present government. So it’s not a choice of whether you love China more than Canada, but because you love China so much, you don’t want to see it destroy itself
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Todd Wong,some questions for you:
1.What, exactly, is “shocking” about an immigrant Church minister asking Chinese-Canadian WWII vet? “Who would you fight for: Canada or China?” Asking questions and listening with an open mind to the answers is, in my opinion, one of best ways to promote respect and understanding.
2.In what way has the WWII internment and the subsequent assimilation of Japanese-Canadians into mainstream Canada “destroyed” the JC community? Do you personally know any Japanese Canadian internee who want to go back to the pre-internment ghetto way of life?
I remember a Japanese language school project in which we kids sent goody bags to the Japanese soldiers wreaking murderous havoc in China. Our immigrant parents would have died of shame if their kids married a Chinese. On CBC TV’s “Life and Times” David Suzuki talked about his father’s ethnic prejudices when it came to choosing a suitable wife for his son.
If you truly want to promote harmony among all Canadians whatever their ethnic origins, you will study history in an unbiased way, not just pick and choose what suits your particular ideology.
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umeboshi – you missed the point on Cotler. My point is that why would Chinese people are the ones always subject to questions about their loyalty to Canada. Like I said, Dr Cotler is a respected Jewish Canadian who openly supports the State of Israel. No one would question his loyalty to Canada. What would happen if a Chinese Canadian politician openly supports China?
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“If you truly want to promote harmony among all Canadians whatever their ethnic origins, you will study history in an unbiased way, not just pick and choose what suits your particular ideology.” – umeboshi
Agreed – and that is so disturbing about the media bias, some reports are so anti-sino and one sided for the pro-Tibet protesters that they are vitriolic against China. Is this what democracy is all about?
“So it’s not a choice of whether you love China more than Canada, but because you love China so much, you don’t want to see it destroy itself” – Todd
For me, I love Canada and I think the present Federal government and media barons are destroying what Canada stands for – peace. Warmongering and media unfairness are very unCanadian.
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“For me, I love Canada and I think the present Federal government and media barons are destroying what Canada stands for – peace. Warmongering and media unfairness are very unCanadian.” – Chinktalk
Agree.
Canada had and still maintains it’s global perception of a Peaceful nation. But all that can change within a generation. Our political leaders must understand and realize that there is indeed, a REAL and growing frustration of Canadians (born and new immigrant) who are fed up with the pandering of politicians in their efforts to gather support.
These politicians, like most of us are lazy.
So they take the easiest route to collect support. And that support currently occurs in the form of special interest groups. Those most and best organized will receive the attention of the politicians. And needless for me to say, some of these groups play the ethnic and/or immigration card.
Check out the Facebook political self promo sites and read their manifestos.
As a person and from a family who has fought for the underdog, and for immigration – it bothers me to see how distorted the whole notion of being Canadian has become.
Perhaps one of the better letters written to our local papers, was from one reader who wrote: “What about the feelings of us long time Canadians?” [Link to earlier post]
There is hope.
There are some politicians who are against this grain and have the chutzpah to say so.
Surrey Mayor, Diane Watts declined to participate in an Ethnic parade a couple of weeks ago – as the parade had a few floats which celebrated a number of murderers and terrorists.
That takes guts to stand up and make this sort of statement. Instead of pandering to a community that made up a large component of her voting constituents, she made a leadership move. [Link to article]
Compare this to former PM Martin showing up at an alleged terrorist fundraiser function a few years back, or my favourite bone, Mr Harper accepting gratitude from an immigrant Chinese group who had no connection to an historic wrong. It’s not these leaders fault – as they could not possibly know all that goes on around them… but the fault of their advisors.
As for Irwin Cotler, it’s interesting that you two bring him up. Mr Cotler, is also one of my more respected politicians.
Mr Cotler was only one of a few Liberals who openly supported John Manley’s bid for the leadership of the party… whereas the bulk of the other Liberals (especially the Young Liberals) got caught up in the Martin efforts.
And my biased opinion is that – had Manley become the leader, the Liberals would still be running Ottawa today.
Good discussion. I hope some of our new Canadians will participate.
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I’m sorry Chink Talk (btw, I kinda wish you’d change your username
!, but I honestly don’t understand what point you are trying to make! I understand why Dr. Cotler supports the State of Israel — I support Israel too!! Don’t you? If not, why not? Israel is a democratic country where its many Arab citizens enjoy all the rights and freedoms that the Jewish citizens do. On the other hand Jewish people are not welcome in Arab countries. In fact, many of these Arab countries would like to blast Israel out of existence. I know you don’t support that.
If a Chinese-Canadian politician openly supports China I don’t think anything would happen. People will vote or not vote for him in a subsequent election, depending on how well he explains his stance. There isn’t even a remote chance that Canada is going to attack China or vice versa, so relax, Chink Talk!
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As a second generation Chinese Canadian, I will address each of the questions posed in the OP and then address a few things in this thread:
“At the Olympic games, who would you root for?”
Neither, not a fan of sports, and definitely not a fan of the over-commercialized Olympics. I didn’t support my hometown, Toronto, when it was angling for the Olympics either. What a waste of money
“If Canada went to war with China… who would you support?”
Same thing I would do if Canada was at war with any other nation. Defend Canada if it was invaded, abstain from support if we’re doing the invading or occupying. (e.g. Afghanistan) I think it would be naive to think that there is absolutely no chance that the US won’t manage to drag us into a future conflict with China. However, I think that probability of that occurring in my lifetime (plus the required draft/conscription to get me involved) is small enough that I’m more worried about getting hit by a bus crossing the street.
I AM worried by a racial backlash against Chinese Canadians as China becomes strong (and if it becomes more provocative in the world) but thats a bit different.
“What are your thoughts on the whole Tibet – China discussion?”
I could type out quite a bit and spent quite a lot of time. However, I feel that my thoughts were pretty well summarized here in the section prefaced with ‘In closing’: “Do I think a lot of the Western media are over-simplifying the situation, playing to their audiences’ desire for a “freedom fighters vs. communist thugs” story line and getting lots of facts wrong? Also yes. Do I think that the Chinese government’s treatment of Tibet created genuine anger which made an eventual violent outburst likely if not inevitable? Yes again. Do I think that the Tibetan people’s lives would be better off if outside powers were to support a civil war of independence? No. Do I think that the Tibetan people’s lives (and the lives of many other ethnicities who now live in Tibet) would be better off if China granted independence to Tibet tomorrow? It’s questionable. Would Tibet be free of human rights problems if it became independent tomorrow? I don’t think so either.”
http://rconversation.blogs.com/rconversation/2008/03/caught-in-a-cul.html
I’ll handle the next few questions in another post since this is getting long.
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“Do the flames of racial finger pointing (eg. comments on Youtube videos and discussion forums) upset you?”
Yes, and it pisses me off both ways. Both from the virulent Chinese nationalist side that assumes that any Chinese Canadians that are opposed to them are brainwashed, too naive, or corrupted by Western influences. Also, from Canadians that assume that the only Chinese Canadians that would not support the Free-Tibet movement/Olympic protests are either visa students or indoctrinated in China.
There are some of us with opinions (and backgrounds) that are not that easy to categorize and dismiss.
“Would you support a boycott of Chinese products … or support the Chinese in their boycott of Western products?”
No, Western purchasing of Chinese products has been pretty good at raising the quality of life there for the common worker. Additionally, boycotts are rarely effective at achieving much other than noise.
I will support one specific boycott.
I hope that Harper and other government officials boycott the Olympics, I hardly want them to spend my tax dollars on a paid vacation to the China
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Mucus, Chinktalk, Todd, Umeboshi et al… you guys (and gals
) are all amazing. Thank you for your views.
I am so glad there are others out there who share some of my thoughts. It would be cool if all of us could get our feelings known to the greater Canadian population.
Maybe we could get together and put forth a superblog or something … it’s time for long time Canadians of “visible minority” label to talk about what is ailing our home – without the fear of being labeled a ‘racist’ or some other ugly term.
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Umeboshi … you’re such a wonderful ideas incubator. Your thought:
“…it seems most new immigrants don’t participate in blog discussions like this. Many don’t even bother to learn to speak English. So how do you reach them? I”
Gave me a thought to post my frequently changing tagline in Chinese… so hopefully, a few Chinese language viewing folks may see what this ol’ blog is up to.
So here’s my updated tagline:
香蕉華人回咬
“a (Chinese) Banana bites back”
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Chinese Tagline: 香蕉華人回咬 is more like Chinese Banana bites AGAIN. I think switching the last two characters will make it closer to the English tagline. Good blog btw.
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umeboshi – I agreed with what you said on nothing would happen to a Chinese Canadian politician even if s/he openly supported China.
I have many Jewish friends and I have great respect for them, but I don’t have any Palestinian friends so I cannot really comment on the situation in the Middle East given that I don’t know both sides of story.
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umeboshi – forgot to reply to your query on my handle -Chinktalk. It is not more audacious than someone calling himself UGLY….
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… and UGLY I am
* sniff *
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I just started a new blog at overseaschinese@wordpress.com
I want to reach out to overseas Chinese around the world.
My mother tongue is Cantonese but I write the blog 90%
in English.o
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opps….I forgot the blog name
http://overseaschinese.wordpress.com/l
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Hi Overseas Chinese-
Thanks for your link up. I checked out your blog… interesting stuff.
I’m glad to see an English language blog coming out of Hong Kong. This is great… now our worlds are really connected up … with a common language.
I hope to share and synergize ideas with colleagues like yourself (Chinese around the world who communicate in English)
You see, truthfully… no English speaking person over here in Canada knows or understands what really occurs in the Chinese speaking world – from an authentic Chinese perspective.
The only news *we* get is filtered from CBC, BBC, CNN, Skynews etc. … so it may not be the complete story. Our other source is from the official Chinese News agencies (Xin hua, CCTV, Shanghai Daily etc.) and although it’s interesting, it may not always be complete.
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Okay. First of all Chinese people aren’t ugly. Even if Canada was to go to war with China, I would root for China cuz China is sooooooooooooooooo much kooler than Canada. Canada freaken sux!!!!!!!! They are so behind on technology!!!! The only thing thats good about Canada is because its multicultural, but there are still those …[* remarks edited out * ].
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Chinese Canadian Veterans of Force 136 are BS!! Japanese Canadian veterans of Force 136 deserved for their country because they already fought several battles against the Japanese forces in WWII before Chinese Canadians joined Force 136 VERY LATELY. They were very lucky because the war was nearly over.
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Why exactly would China and Canada go to war against each other? How would I get involved? Just like what Mucus said, I’m more worried about getting hit by a bus while I cross the street… or get hit by lightning…
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What if Canada were at war with USA?
How many white canadians would surrender to white americans immediately and ask for citizenship in USA?
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Canada is a immigrants’s country. Most of Canadian come from famaly origionated from other country. The conflict of emotion is common human nature. In 1917 when US declaired war with Gemanny, many Gemany speaking American refused to join army and fleet to Canada. Canada accpted them.
I gust the question can also be asked to British Canadian as what they should do if Canada is in the war with British. Or ask Gemeny Canadian what they should do if Canada went to war with Geman. These are nasty question and trick question.
The best question we should ask is what we can do to have a peace world, to have a world without war.
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to arms
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already a canadian soldier, will die for canada
they’ve got a masssive army in china, sure won’t need me
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